Certainty v. Creativity

Certainty or Creativity - which will you choose?

This week, Nathan Hill’s novel “Wellness” serves as a springboard for Laura’s spark. 
The specific line that ignited our conversation?  "You can choose to be certain or you can choose to be alive." We'll discuss how this notion impacts all our creative journeys and share wisdom from playwright Stephen Karam on the price of admission for love and artistry.

This episode marks the launch of Season 5 with a fresh approach—shorter, more frequent episodes designed to keep your creative sparks burning. Join us as we explore how the need for certainty can hold us back in love and creativity, and how embracing uncertainty can fuel growth and transformation. 

And consider the scientifically proven placebo effect…just the belief in positive outcomes can lead to positive outcomes. What might happen if we approached our creative work with optimism, hope, and a belief in positive outcomes?

Jump back into The Spark File and discover how you can connect with us to turn your sparks of inspiration into a bonfire of creativity!

Transcript

The Spark File Podcast Transcript 

Season 5, Episode 1: Certainty v. Creativity 

Susan Blackwell 

Welcome to The Spark File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone. 

Laura Camien 

I'm Laura Camien. 

Susan Blackwell 

And I am Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people clarify and accomplish their creative goals. 

Laura Camien 

Know that just by listening to this podcast, you're joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives. 

Susan Blackwell 

But hold the phone, you may be asking yourself, what exactly is a Spark File? 

Laura Camien 

A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all your inspirations and fascinations. And every episode, we're going to reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks and from time to time, we're going to talk to some folks who spark us too. 

Susan Blackwell 

And your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to take some of those sparks of inspiration and make something of your own. So without further ado, let's open up the spark file. 

Susan Blackwell 

And your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to take some of those sparks of inspiration and make something of your own. So without further ado, let's open up the spark file. 

Laura Camien 

The spark file! 

thesparkfile.com

Susan Blackwell 

Laura Camien, welcome back. 

Laura Camien 

Susan Blackwell, here we are face to face in front of our microphones. 

Susan Blackwell 

A couple of silver spoons. 

Laura Camien 

That's right. That's right. Welcome to season five. 

Susan Blackwell 

What's up, season five? 

Laura Camien 

The long awaited season five, shall we say. 

Susan Blackwell 

But we haven't just been sitting over here doing nothing. We've been working so hard and trying to figure out when we could find the time to start season five. And guess what?It's happening. 

Laura Camien 

Today's the day. 

Susan Blackwell 

Today's the day. 

Laura Camien 

I'm very excited about it. I started like, I woke up this morning excited to share my spark, which is always a good sign. Like, ah, I got something good to share. 

Susan Blackwell 

Love that. Yes. 

Laura Camien 

But then also as the hour approached, I found myself getting those little like tiny bit of sweaty palms… Tiny, like, I'm excited. I’m excited. 

Susan Blackwell 

I'm excited too. 

Susan Blackwell 

thesparkfile.com

I love it. They're sweaty palms. That's the price of admission today, but I believe in you. And I'm excited to be on the receiving end of a pipe and hot sparkler. 

Laura Camien 

I'm going to give it to you, Suze. 

Susan Blackwell 

Yeah. 

Laura Camien 

I'm going to give it to you. Oh, wait. We should say, friends, you're going to notice so one very big difference in the Sparkfile podcast this season. 

Susan Blackwell 

Oh, of course, of course. 

Laura Camien 

We're going to do some shorter episodes. This is actually how we were able to say, you know what? Let's not make it such a heavy lift. It's part of – how easy can it be. Let's do 20 minute or 30 minute episodes so we can get some sparks out there hot and fast and fresh, and keep it moving, people. It's a creative limitation and a challenge for two people who really do love to talk to each other. 

Susan Blackwell 

If you need a longer episode, there's four prior seasons where we're talking for hours and hours at each other. So you can dip into those. 

Laura Camien 

Can I just say, I know we're moving on and I'm going to give you my spark, but I just want to say when we first, first recorded the very first time, friends, if you haven't heard this, we were like, gosh, I wonder if we'll have like an hour's worth of stuff to talk about together. 

Susan Blackwell 

Oh my God. 

Laura Camien 

And we, we talked for two plus hours and almost three. 

Susan Blackwell 

More, yeah. 

Laura Camien 

And we were like, well, I guess we don't need to worry about that. And that has been true for the nearly 30 years that we've been friends. So now we challenge ourselves with the opposite. Can we stop talking? 

Susan Blackwell 

thesparkfile.com

Can, that is the question. We're about to find out, but Laura Camien, let's get into it. 

Laura Camien 

Here we go, Suze. A while back, I told you about a book that I read, this book that blew my mind, and we have literally not had a moment to discuss it since. I'm pretty sure you listened to it, but we didn't talk about it. So in my opinion, the whole thing is incredible, but there's one concept in this book that stood out to me and sparked me so hard that it inspired my spark today. 

Susan Blackwell 

I'm so excited. 

Laura Camien 

This book is called Wellness. It is a novel. It is absolute fiction. The title sounds like it might be self help or like your complete guide to overall wellness. It's not that. It's a novel. It's fiction. It's by Nathan Hill. And it's amazing. 

Susan Blackwell 

It's a fantastic book. It's a great listen. I did listen to the audiobook. 

Laura Camien 

I read it old fashioned page by page, ah pencil in hand, you know, underlining. 

Susan Blackwell 

How quaint. 

Laura Camien 

I know a little notes in the margins. I can't help it. Reading a book is like an active experience for me. um This book covers a lot of ground. 

Laura Camien 

If you recall, it was like. falling in love, maintaining your independence, gentrification, the art scene in Chicago in the 90s, the culture of old New England money, the ecosystems of the American Midwest, parenting, conspiracy theories, algorithms, the culture of self-care and what we're willing to spend on our health and beauty. There were times when we had gone in so many directions that I would be reading and thinking, how in the hell is all of this going to pull together in the end? But I got to say for me, Nathan Hill took 16 strands of hair and braided them together into the most elaborate weave in this incredible story. 

Susan Blackwell 

Yeah. 

Laura Camien 

And when it all came together for me, it slapped me in the face with a line that took my breath away. And that line was “You can choose to be certain, or you can choose to be alive.” 

thesparkfile.com

Susan Blackwell 

Oh. 

Laura Camien 

And therein lies my spark for today. You can choose to be certain, or you can choose to be alive. So we are living in in incredibly uncertain times. 

Susan Blackwell 

M hmm. 

Laura Camien 

And it won't surprise you to know that this is not the first time in history that we've all gone through uncertain times. Right now we have warring countries, we have political upheaval, what feels like chaos here in the US. We have PTSD from a health crisis and a pandemic that upended so many people's lives, but in different ways. And if we look at history, we can see a pattern, especially during times of crisis as a way of coping, people look for certainty. The search for certainty can be traced all the way back to our famous philosophers, the Socrates, the Plato's, all those dudes. They look to mathematics and physics to prove certainty, like, think of how we know for certain that 2 plus 2 equals 4. Or if I pick up this pencil and hold it out and I let go of it, I can be absolutely certain that pencil is going to fall to the ground, right? But even those examples are conditional. For example, if I have two pieces of mercury here and two pieces of mercury here and I put them together, they don't equal four. They're gonna blob together and they're gonna be one bit of mercury. And my pencil is only gonna fall to the floor if I'm standing on the surface of the earth and gravity is at play. If I'm in space, that pencil isn't gonna fall anywhere. So even then, our certainty has conditions attached to it and we have to understand context. So one of the things that threw me was how, personally, I didn't realize this until I just thought so much about this, this sentence. I was like, oh my God, I have assigned certainty, like the word, the meaning of it with a positive feeling. Like I didn't think too long and hard about it or anything. I just have always thought certainty. Yes, that's good. That's a good thing to have. We all want certainty, right? 

Susan Blackwell 

Yeah. 

Laura Camien 

Well, the more I dug into it and thought about it and read about it, throughout history, certainty, meaning beliefs in absolute and certain truths, has often been the justification for the most inhumane behavior, especially towards other people who don't share those truths and beliefs. Wars have been fought because of religious certainty, cruelty on other ah human beings has been inflicted because we're absolutely certain they're guilty of something or they're bad or they're monsters and we are just certain of it. Which brings me to a quick beat about conspiracy theories. One of the reasons we see a rise in conspiracy theories during times of upheaval and crisis is because we crave certainty. We are desperate for certainty. 

Susan Blackwell 

Yes. 

thesparkfile.com

Laura Camien 

We want to know something is true, something is unmovable and unquestionable, especially as everything around us is swirling and changing and it feels like we're on on really shaky ground. Even though there's so many of us who are like who will wonder, like, how in the hell did that smart person that we know fall into this trap of this conspiracy theory and start believing, you know, X, Y, or Z?there They're eating dogs or they're um or or um transgender surgeries for illegal aliens in jail. That is a whole spark in and of itself, how that happens. but In a nutshell, we have to realize most likely it started small, one belief that broke through and it was built upon with another and another and another and now they literally cannot afford to question the viability of the latest theory because they have built a foundation of certain beliefs. They've put their certainty in a person or a political party. And if you pull on that thread or you knock down that first domino, you're going to see the whole thing crumble. And as we've witnessed, many people who believe in conspiracy theories cannot afford, their mind becomes fixed on what they are certain of. It's fixed and it's unmovable. They cannot afford to open their mind to contrary ideas. They can't make themselves vulnerable to the possibility. If this thing isn't true, the whole thing crumbles. And our brains are literally built to protect us from that. Our brains will cling to our certainty for self-protection. But for those of us who are not currently down a rabbit hole, I got curious thinking about how the desire for certainty shows up in our lives and how the desire for certainty can keep us from being fully alive. There's an old adage, only two things are certain in life, death and taxes. It's funny. But really, the only thing we can be remotely certain about is that all of us will die. Or at least for one reason or another, our bodies will stop functioning. You could probably argue there are gray areas in there. Most people don't like to think about it, but that we know is true. Our bodies will stop functioning. We can't be certain of when that day will come. We can't be certain we'll wake up tomorrow. We can't be certain we have 10 more years with our parents. When I think of it that way, I think about the line, “You can choose to be certain or you can choose to be alive.” And I think it's a bit of a choice to live in denial or to be fully openly aware of the possibilities and choose to live anyway. 

Susan Blackwell 

Mmm. 

Laura Camien 

And it takes bravery. It takes courage without a doubt. There are a lot of areas in particular where we hold ourselves back from truly living because we can't be certain of the outcome. But the two I'm just gonna touch on today are love and creativity. 

Susan Blackwell 

Ugh, yes! 

Laura Camien 

So first, obviously in the area of love, we often hold ourselves back from giving love until we can be certain that we're going to be loved back. Right? This could be romantic love. This could be friendship. We want to be certain that they won't ever reject us, hurt us, leave us, but we can't be certain. We can't know for sure that the person or people that we give our love to won't ever lie or make a mistake or make a choice that we don't like. We can't be certain that we'll grow old 

thesparkfile.com

together for any number of reasons. 

Susan Blackwell 

No. 

Laura Camien 

So we have to make a choice. We can choose to live every day, meaning show up day by day and offer love and kindness to each other, not knowing what the outcome may be. And that's all we can really do. Now, when it comes to creativity, Suze, this is the one that I am not exaggerating. It keeps me up at night. Because I think about the number of people we have talked to who have a creative dream, something they want to create, say, a book they want to write. And that they've been wanting to write it for years. They'll even say, this has been in my mind for 15 years. 

Susan Blackwell 

Yeah. 

Laura Camien 

But they are stopped by the lack of certainty. 

Susan Blackwell 

Yes! 

Laura Camien 

They'll say, what if I write this book, spend all that time writing it? And nothing happens. What if my life doesn't change? Or what if I create this show and no one likes it? What if it, quote, “doesn't go anywhere?” 

Susan Blackwell 

Yes. 

Laura Camien 

Again, again, they're asking, what if my life doesn't change?It's a lot to put on anything, a relationship, a creative project that the thing you need to be certain of is that it's going to change your life or why do it? But the thing is we want a guarantee for our investment. What if you put all your money in the stock market and it crashes? What if you love someone and they stop loving you back? What if I make something and it doesn't change the world or even change the circumstances of my life? Well, I think we have to accept that is living. That is living. At least you're being active. You're growing, expanding, learning. You absolutely will be changed by that relationship that you invest in. You absolutely will be changed by that creative work that you make. We won't know exactly how until we muster the courage to venture into it. And there is one guarantee, I think. If you do nothing, nothing will change. That I think we could be pretty certain of. I understand even that has some gray areas, but pretty certain if you don't do anything, nothing will change. I want to pause here, Suze, because I want to know if you have thoughts to add. 

Susan Blackwell 

thesparkfile.com

I have so many thoughts. The first is, and I think I might've told this story, anecdote. It's not even a full story…snippet? On the podcast before. I don't remember. I don't remember but Ihad just met my now husband and I was on a Martz bus with the wonderful playwright, Steven Karam, headed out to go visit his family at their house and I was saying how much I liked this person I had just met. Like I was really, really falling for him, for Nathan. 

Laura Camien 

Mm hmm. 

Susan Blackwell 

And I was really scared because I wasn't sure if it was reciprocated yet. 

Laura Camien 

Yeah. 

Susan Blackwell 

And so Stephen Karam said, “Well, that's the price of admission to the dance.” 

Laura Camien 

That's right. 

Susan Blackwell 

And I think about, I still quote him, but I apply it not only to matters of the heart, but also to Matters of creativity that is the price of admission to the dance. Like what if that boy doesn't like me back? What if the the book that I have always wanted to write doesn't make an impact? What if it doesn't change my life or anyone's life? And it's like, that's the risk you take. So there's that there's that/ 

Laura Camien 

Yes, yes to that. Yep. 

Susan Blackwell 

And also, you brushed this, but I also, I thoroughly enjoyed this book. But one of the things from this book that rocked my world is Nathan Hill, in this book, I don't know how he did it. I don't know what research he conducted, but he describes in such detail how a person falls into believing in conspiracies. And he writes it in a way that is masterful. It's one of the, like, when I think about not just my favorite books of last year, but also – or this year, I can't remember when I read that, but when I think about my favorite chapters of books, that has to be top, top, top. 

Laura Camien 

Yep. Susan. It's so funny you say that because I was just going to say so I had bought this book on the recommendation of an Instagram post from like New York magazine or something, like the five best books to get right now. And I was on a tear and I was like, I'll get all five of these. Let's go. And so I had bought it. And then a friend was visiting. Hi, Bryce Somerville! And he was talking about this book he had just read. And he was like, this chapter in particular. And we get into detail about that chapter. 

thesparkfile.com

Susan Blackwell 

Oh, Bryce. Yes. 

Laura Camien 

And I was like, what book is this? And he was like, it's “Wellness” by Nathan Hill. And I was like, I have it. I already have it. I just ordered it. I'm starting it tomorrow. And he's right, that chapter. 

Susan Blackwell 

That writing. 

Laura Camien 

And it is like… it's that algorithm, like exactly how you can get sucked down into a conspiracy theory rabbit hole just one tiny step at a time. 

Susan Blackwell 

Yeah. 

Laura Camien 

You don't realize it's happening. You're a frog in that boiling pot of water with the degrees getting, you know, it's getting hotter and hotter, but so incrementally small steps. 

Susan Blackwell 

And the frog believes that it has agency and liberty and it is an independent thinking frog. And certainty. 

Laura Camien 

That's right. And the way that they do it just establishes this like, no, I am certain about this. 

Susan Blackwell 

Yeah. 

Laura Camien 

I have researched this. I know this to be true. Unwavering and unmovable fact. 

Susan Blackwell 

Yeah, so good. 

Laura Camien 

So good. And when I think about it, I'm like, right. Clinging to certainty is no way to be alive. Because the things that we can be certain of is like, if I don't give my heart to anyone, I can be sure I will never be hurt. 

Susan Blackwell 

It's great. 

thesparkfile.com

Laura Camien 

Sure, you can be certain that you won't be hurt in that way. It's probably going to cause you pain in another way. 

Susan Blackwell 

Yeah. 

Laura Camien 

If I choose not to create something, I can be certain that no one is going to be online saying, ah giving a review of my work and saying they hated it. That's true. I can be certain that won't happen. 

Susan Blackwell 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Laura Camien 

I can also be certain there won't be people who are out there saying the opposite. I was so affected by that work. I needed that work in my life. That work meant a lot to me. So that's what we can be certain of. So I want to leave you with one of the other questions that the book “Wellness” brought up. Through a long and winding road, the book explores, and it's related, it explores the idea of the placebo effect. For those unfamiliar with the placebo effect, a placebo is used typically in like medical trials to test the effectiveness of a drug or a treatment. And people in one group get the actual drug that they're testing while other people receive like a meaningless pill, a placebo. It might be a sugar pill. It's nothing. It's not the medication. And the participants in the trial don't know whether they're receiving the real medicine or the placebo. Studies have shown one-third of the folks who are taking the placebo pill actually recover, get well, even though they weren't taking the real medication. It works because they believe it will work. So the book asks.. 

Susan Blackwell 

Hmm. 

Laura Camien 

If we know that 33% of folks will be healed by giving them a placebo, do we have a responsibility to use it? Should we at least try it if we know it works a certain percentage of the time? Fun fact, Susan. I looked this up. Scientists have even proven that the placebo effect can work even when the patient knows that they are taking a placebo. 

Susan Blackwell 

Ah! 

Laura Camien 

This was bananas. 

Susan Blackwell 

Wow. 

thesparkfile.com

Laura Camien 

In 50% of the patients who knew that they were taking something that wasn't actually medicine, they still got better. So I started to wonder, what if we take a metaphorical placebo pill when it comes to love and creativity? Maybe we can't be certain that it will work, but it's worth a try. The placebo effect is an idea that works if you believe it will work. The outcome's not guaranteed, but it can work. So what if we applied it when we give our hearts away, or when we start a creative project? What if we choose to believe that only good things are going to happen from this? What if we choose to believe this friendship is going to be glorious? This relationship is going to be so fun and so enriching. This creative project is going to, um, enrich my life in ways I can, in great ways I can barely imagine right now. Maybe it won't work, but what if it does? What if it all works out beautifully? What if we give up the impossible dream of being certain and instead choose to be alive? What incredible things might happen then? 

Susan Blackwell 

I love this so much, Laura, and if you you know haven't already picked up on it, we both highly recommend “Wellness” by Nathan Hill, but what a great…I feel like we need to print this on merch. 

Laura Camien 

Oh, gosh. 

Susan Blackwell 

Would you rather be certain or be alive? Like it is, it is… It responds to so many of the questions that people pose to us about the what ifs and the fears that they have about their creative work. 

Laura Camien 

Yeah. Yeah. The perfectionists out there and we see you, we feel it the same. 

Susan Blackwell 

We are you. 

Laura Camien 

We are you. That's sort of like, well, I don't want to hand this in if I don't know like this is A plus work. I don't want to post my website unless I know that it's exactly all the things that it could be. We'll never be certain. Go ahead and get it out there. Let's choose to be alive. 

Susan Blackwell 

Let's choose to be alive. Beautiful, beautiful. Way to kick off season five, Laura Camien. 

Laura Camien 

Thank you, Suze. 

Susan Blackwell 

And I guess that's it. This episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape and the Mohican people. And as always, we hope this put a bunch of tasty sparks in your file. Listen, if there's a spark that you would like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to accomplish your creative goals, you can email us at getcreative @ thesparkfile. com 

thesparkfile.com

Susan Blackwell 

or you can reach us through our website, thesparkfile . com 

Laura Camien 

We'll even happily take your feedback, but you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk you've taken recently. 

Susan Blackwell 

You can follow us on social @thesparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five-star review this podcast. It really does help other listeners to find us. Also, if you liked this podcast, we hope that you'll share it with people that you love. And if you didn't like it, you know what? We still wish you aliveness, not just certainty, but aliveness. 

Laura Camien 

Ha! Get out there and live your life. That's right. If something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, we're writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. 

Laura Camien 

It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame. 

Susan Blackwell 

You know, you gotta take it. 

Laura Camien 

And make it! 

Susan Blackwell 

Welcome back season five! 

Laura Camien 

Yeah! 

thesparkfile.com